Regarding the Snipers Nerf

Hi,

There was recently a sniper nerf on the scope delay, from 300ms to 2s. I think it was the wrong kind of nerf and here's why.


First of all, the nerf that happened only affected people using 2 snipers. People using a single sniper are unaffected, and therefore, it's not a nerf to the weapon as much as a limiter to a play-style. People using two snipers are not as rare as they used to be before they were "tweaked", in fact, it can be fairly common to see a player with them in a room, but if we were to compare which weapon was mostly used, shotguns are (by a WIDE margin). The reason is simple, the spread makes it a forgiving weapon that still packs nearly -if not as much- damage than a sniper from up close, and is nearly guaranteed to hit at mid-range. It has a good ammo capacity and the delay is extremely small. In fact, this server probably has the strongest shotguns of any private server.
Snipers were brought up to be more competitive against them, rewarding quick aiming at the loss of certain moves. But it's clear, seeing how most players still used shotguns, that shotguns were still the "strongest"(relative) weapon, or at least, the one that gave you the advantage in most scenarios.

Because snipers could be used at great effect by someone who practiced aiming, some players got frustrated. Not because the weapon was overpowered (otherwise everybody would be using it), but because of how frustrating it is to get your HP from full to near-dead/dead (1/2 shot).

So, considering the aforementioned, I think snipers should have an increase in delay instead of an increase in scope delay. There is two reasons the nerf should be reverted and replaced by a delay-nerf.
First, it will affect the weapon itself, not a playstyle. Players with only one sniper will also be affected.
Secondly, increasing the delay will reduce the "spammability" of snipers, while not preventing them from scoping in/out to re-aquire the target.
And last but not least, running with two snipers will become viable again, allowing to chain another shot quickly if the first one missed/to finnish of the target - All while not being spammable due to delay.

Thank you for reading,
Jawarisin

snipers was nerfed because it was being abused, no1 should be able to shoot 2 shots (each shot 100dmg) in 1 second.

they also said a thousand times their looking into this but it wont be going back to the original .300ms.

I know they listen to logic, so I prefer to say it. Worst case is nothing happens.

Also i got 2 donor snipers and it's now felt like i wasted my coins because i could just shoot the same speed with 1 sniper and 2 snipers.
As in use 1 sniper and shoot the 3 ammo which is the same as 2 snipers and switching them.
why not SG users train sniping themselves? i suck with SGs so i found sniping as an alternating way of killing players, now the nerf ruined the fun. :(
it requires more training to be good with Sgss than sniping, so Un-nerf or Refund would be good. :)

MeX right, you guys really need to Un-nerf the snipers or you refund each and every sniper player who bought sniper.

I am pretty sure Dave mentioned in 50 other threads the delay is going to be a bit lower, but not back to 300 ms.

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Originally Posted by Jawarisin

Hi,

There was recently a sniper nerf on the scope delay, from 300ms to 2s. I think it was the wrong kind of nerf and here's why.


First of all, the nerf that happened only affected people using 2 snipers. People using a single sniper are unaffected, and therefore, it's not a nerf to the weapon as much as a limiter to a play-style. People using two snipers are not as rare as they used to be before they were "tweaked", in fact, it can be fairly common to see a player with them in a room, but if we were to compare which weapon was mostly used, shotguns are (by a WIDE margin). The reason is simple, the spread makes it a forgiving weapon that still packs nearly -if not as much- damage than a sniper from up close, and is nearly guaranteed to hit at mid-range. It has a good ammo capacity and the delay is extremely small. In fact, this server probably has the strongest shotguns of any private server.
Snipers were brought up to be more competitive against them, rewarding quick aiming at the loss of certain moves. But it's clear, seeing how most players still used shotguns, that shotguns were still the "strongest"(relative) weapon, or at least, the one that gave you the advantage in most scenarios.

Because snipers could be used at great effect by someone who practiced aiming, some players got frustrated. Not because the weapon was overpowered (otherwise everybody would be using it), but because of how frustrating it is to get your HP from full to near-dead/dead (1/2 shot).

So, considering the aforementioned, I think snipers should have an increase in delay instead of an increase in scope delay. There is two reasons the nerf should be reverted and replaced by a delay-nerf.
First, it will affect the weapon itself, not a playstyle. Players with only one sniper will also be affected.
Secondly, increasing the delay will reduce the "spammability" of snipers, while not preventing them from scoping in/out to re-aquire the target.
And last but not least, running with two snipers will become viable again, allowing to chain another shot quickly if the first one missed/to finnish of the target - All while not being spammable due to delay.

Thank you for reading,
Jawarisin

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Attempting to write an essay doesn't address your concern when your argument is flawed in the first few paragraphs, "up close" snipers do the same damage far away,
the advantage of distance with a high powered weapon, along with practically zero delay time is welcoming abuse, and you're trying to justify your use of it.

want to spam use revs

:)

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Originally Posted by Apex

want to spam use revs

:)

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word dunn mighty

Snipers4HP/AP Reduce

If snipers can kill us in 2 hits we should be able to kill snipers in 2 hits too ok

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Originally Posted by Jawarisin

Hi,

There was recently a sniper nerf on the scope delay, from 300ms to 2s. I think it was the wrong kind of nerf and here's why.


First of all, the nerf that happened only affected people using 2 snipers. People using a single sniper are unaffected, and therefore, it's not a nerf to the weapon as much as a limiter to a play-style.
Nope, it takes 2 seconds to scope out too, so you still need to wait 2 second after scoping in to switch weapons even if you only have 1 sniper.
People using two snipers are not as rare as they used to be before they were "tweaked", in fact, it can be fairly common to see a player with them in a room, but if we were to compare which weapon was mostly used, shotguns are (by a WIDE margin). The reason is simple, the spread makes it a forgiving weapon that still packs nearly -if not as much- damage than a sniper from up close, and is nearly guaranteed to hit at mid-range. It has a good ammo capacity and the delay is extremely small. In fact, this server probably has the strongest shotguns of any private server.
'Shotguns are OP so snipers need to be OP too' isn't a very good argument.
Snipers were brought up to be more competitive against them, rewarding quick aiming at the loss of certain moves. But it's clear, seeing how most players still used shotguns, that shotguns were still the "strongest"(relative) weapon, or at least, the one that gave you the advantage in most scenarios.

Because snipers could be used at great effect by someone who practiced aiming, some players got frustrated. Not because the weapon was overpowered (otherwise everybody would be using it), but because of how frustrating it is to get your HP from full to near-dead/dead (1/2 shot).
Problem is that snipers are used in close-combat too, where the need to aim is basically nil.

So, considering the aforementioned, I think snipers should have an increase in delay instead of an increase in scope delay. There is two reasons the nerf should be reverted and replaced by a delay-nerf.
Ever heard of reload shot? Yeah, it basically negates delay.
First, it will affect the weapon itself, not a playstyle. Players with only one sniper will also be affected.
Secondly, increasing the delay will reduce the "spammability" of snipers, while not preventing them from scoping in/out to re-aquire the target.
And last but not least, running with two snipers will become viable again, allowing to chain another shot quickly if the first one missed/to finnish of the target - All while not being spammable due to delay.

Thank you for reading,
Jawarisin

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Sure, the balance right now is nowhere near perfect, and we'll keep adjusting over time to find a nice middle ground. I personally believe shotguns should be nerfed too in some way, but doing that is way harder than nerfing snipers. Snipers are recently new and aren't as written in stone as shotguns are in the GunZ scene, so it's much harder to find the right stats between all the other weapontypes that have been around since day 1.

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Originally Posted by Zain

Sure, the balance right now is nowhere near perfect, and we'll keep adjusting over time to find a nice middle ground. I personally believe shotguns should be nerfed too in some way, but doing that is way harder than nerfing snipers. Snipers are recently new and aren't as written in stone as shotguns are in the GunZ scene, so it's much harder to find the right stats between all the other weapontypes that have been around since day 1.

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Nope, it takes 2 seconds to scope out too, so you still need to wait 2 second after scoping in to switch weapons even if you only have 1 sniper.
-Didn't notice that particular bit, the other thing though is that with 1 sniper you can shoot just as fast as with 2 snipers. No advantage to having 2 of them now.
'Shotguns are OP so snipers need to be OP too' isn't a very good argument.
I'm not crying about shotguns being overpowered. They are stupidly strong it's true, but what I'm pointing out is that if we use them as the "baseline" Snipers are waaaaay below. Without being stronger or weaker, they should at least be competitive.
Problem is that snipers are used in close-combat too, where the need to aim is basically nil.
So are shotguns, who can be spammed, and used in more complex maneuvers, need even less aiming, and will kill you just as fast from up close.
Ever heard of reload shot? Yeah, it basically negates delay.
It doesn't negate the weapon delay... Only makes the weapon-switching animation way faster. The reason you might think it negates delay is because you're used to Fgunz's low delay shotguns who's delay are so low if you RS it doesn't even apply. If you RS with snipers like the old one, both delays would apply, not letting you shoot for the ~2000 delay or so. And fun bit I didn't mention up there, but Snipers were bugged and had a known issue that if you RS'd too fast, the first sniper's delay would add up on the second one's delay, and they would both have a huge delay, but only the first one would shoot. Point being, RS doesn't negate delay.

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Originally Posted by Sonji

Snipers4HP/AP Reduce

If snipers can kill us in 2 hits we should be able to kill snipers in 2 hits too ok

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This is actually not a bad idea. A good balance.

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Originally Posted by Sonji

Snipers4HP/AP Reduce

If snipers can kill us in 2 hits we should be able to kill snipers in 2 hits too ok

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it's already the case ok

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Originally Posted by Jawarisin

it's already the case ok

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if someone can 2shot u with sg reguarly or even 3shot u with sg now or before update theirs 2 choices 4 u

1, learn proper movement.

2, quit gunz

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Originally Posted by Sonji

Snipers4HP/AP Reduce

If snipers can kill us in 2 hits we should be able to kill snipers in 2 hits too ok

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Well with snipers you cannot keep spamming it but have to wait and with Sgs you can spam and spam which is more of an advantage.

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Originally Posted by MeX

Well with snipers you cannot keep spamming it but have to wait and with Sgs you can spam and spam which is more of an advantage.

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Yeah snipers are able to 2 hit kill u from one end of the map to the other end, which is totally not an advantage

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Originally Posted by Jonathan pls

Yeah snipers are able to 2 hit kill u from one end of the map to the other end, which is totally not an advantage

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damn what maps are you even playing with your shotguns o.o, mine always got obstacles that block my view and are rather annoying...

The only way I can see them fixing this and still "nerfing" snipers, would be to lower the delay to 1 second. 300ms to 2 seconds is a huge jump. Especially considering, that even the best snipers MISS. So if you miss, even at long range, 2 seconds of not being able to shoot gives other players (who in this scenario aren't sniping) time to move up while still spamming you and dealing damage. This is especially a devastating nerf if you are in a room where there is no R tag

Best compromise that I can basically say will happen unless other complications come up (they might):

In [SNO] rooms and [SNO] rooms only, snipers will have 300~600ms delay.

In all other rooms the nerf will remain active, but but tweaked down to approximately 1.5~1.3~1. Depending on my testing and consultation with McSic or Dave as to what they assume is also fair.

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Originally Posted by Mike

Best compromise that I can basically say will happen unless other complications come up (they might):

In [SNO] rooms and [SNO] rooms only, snipers will have 300~600ms delay.

In all other rooms the nerf will remain active, but but tweaked down to approximately 1.5~1.3~1. Depending on my testing and consultation with McSic or Dave as to what they assume is also fair.

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This seems like a decent solution to me, but I think the pro-non-sniper-nerf people will still not be satisfied with it. Maybe adding a [ns] room tag for just not allowing snipers in the room will be a good solution.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan pls

This seems like a decent solution to me, but I think the pro-non-sniper-nerf people will still not be satisfied with it. Maybe adding a [ns] room tag for just not allowing snipers in the room will be a good solution.

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I like this idea. This idea very pro. #NSNOROOMTAG2K15

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Originally Posted by Jonathan pls

This seems like a decent solution to me, but I think the pro-non-sniper-nerf people will still not be satisfied with it. Maybe adding a [ns] room tag for just not allowing snipers in the room will be a good solution.

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There's already a NS roomtag and besides, I really don't want to see more roomtags.

Best solution is make a room with [SGO] so that no snipers can join...
Un-nerf it.

Like I said before several times, the nerf will not be reverted. The only thing we will do in the next update is change the delay to something lower.

Well what about instead of the 2s delay, make it 900ms? I think it'll have a difference too.
and instead of changing delays, why not lower the damage more? Imo its more acceptable. Donor Snipers are 150 dmg while the shop snipers have 130 dmg.
why not make donor snipers dmg to 130 dmg, and shop snipers to 110 dmg?

just an opinion tho.

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Originally Posted by MeX

Best solution is make a room with [SGO] so that no snipers can join...
Un-nerf it.

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no cause some of us like to play gunz the way it was ment to be played, snipers are just a gay addition for weak people who cant aim using revs 2 b OP

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Originally Posted by FreeWilly

no cause some of us like to play gunz the way it was ment to be played, snipers are just a gay addition for weak people who cant aim using revs 2 b OP

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You just are tired of getting smekt by me :o.o

You guys always complain about getting rekt by snipers and won't stop even AFTER the dang nerf, like come on people just give the snipers a break and let the devs handle it themselves.

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Originally Posted by Prone

You just are tired of getting smekt by me :o.o

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mayb :o.o but you have no proof of that! :3

How about stop complaining and learn some more glitchy shotgun stuff that was never intended?

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Originally Posted by Colour

How about stop complaining and learn some more glitchy shotgun stuff that was never intended?

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Yeah reloadshot on snipers was totally intended right?
In the original gunz snipers weren't even made because they knew it would ruin the game.
:o.o

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Originally Posted by Ao

Yeah reloadshot on snipers was totally intended right?
In the original gunz snipers weren't even made because they knew it would ruin the game.
:o.o

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I also doubt reload shot was intended on shotguns, so that actually broke the game already, now they even have delay's that are way below what they should be ruling out the use of any other weapon because ownage's got nerfed beyond useless ._.

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Originally Posted by Colour

I also doubt reload shot was intended on shotguns, so that actually broke the game already, now they even have delay's that are way below what they should be ruling out the use of any other weapon because ownage's got nerfed beyond useless ._.

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without kstyle gunz would be completely dead the only thing that differentiates this game from others is kstyle how dumb are u lmao

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Originally Posted by Akimbo

without kstyle gunz would be completely dead the only thing that differentiates this game from others is kstyle how dumb are u lmao

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lol so when someone starts k-styling with snipers the QQ starts, if i'm dumb because k-style with shotguns should be, then all the people QQ-ing about snipers doing k-style are equally dumb because the game would be dead without it (According to your reasoning).

Btw Dave
Whats with those users who got 2 donated sniper? can we give one back for money?
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Btw colour dont listen to him he just hate u cuz u beautyfull xD

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Originally Posted by Colour

lol so when someone starts k-styling with snipers the QQ starts, if i'm dumb because k-style with shotguns should be, then all the people QQ-ing about snipers doing k-style are equally dumb because the game would be dead without it (According to your reasoning).

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exactly kstyle is meant to be played with shotguns not any other weapon because of the playstyle and snipers dont even need kstyle if you just stand from one side of the map to shoot to another

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Originally Posted by Akimbo

exactly kstyle is meant to be played with shotguns not any other weapon because of the playstyle and snipers dont even need kstyle if you just stand from one side of the map to shoot to another

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thats unrelated. the target of this game is to hit while dodging other shots. standing in 1 spot=dead in 2 secs.

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Originally Posted by Bunnys

thats unrelated. the target of this game is to hit while dodging other shots. standing in 1 spot=dead in 2 secs.

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Not to mention that there are almost no maps that grant you the ability to see the other side of the map from 1 of the edges...

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Originally Posted by Bunnys

thats unrelated. the target of this game is to hit while dodging other shots. standing in 1 spot=dead in 2 secs.

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Originally Posted by Colour

lol so when someone starts k-styling with snipers the QQ starts, if i'm dumb because k-style with shotguns should be, then all the people QQ-ing about snipers doing k-style are equally dumb because the game would be dead without it (According to your reasoning).

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you both just totally ignored what he said and took it way out of prospective. kstyle with shotguns are what made this game popular. before that it was a few hundred people running around with spray and the player base was the size of fgunz is now. once kstyle with shotguns came around the player base grew. so stop QQing about your OP weapons getting dummied cause you cant aim with a spread weapon. snipers werent even ment for gunz. its a private server exclusive. this game isnt ment to have you getting 1 shotted from half way to end of the map. Its shit like this that makes people not want 2 play this server.

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Originally Posted by FreeWilly

you both just totally ignored what he said and took it way out of prospective. kstyle with shotguns are what made this game popular. before that it was a few hundred people running around with spray and the player base was the size of fgunz is now. once kstyle with shotguns came around the player base grew. so stop QQing about your OP weapons getting dummied cause you cant aim with a spread weapon. snipers werent even ment for gunz. its a private server exclusive. this game isnt ment to have you getting 1 shotted from half way to end of the map. Its shit like this that makes people not want 2 play this server.

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Shit like this should make you want to play here just because other weapons are actually able to kill shotgunners. Also all other populair servers have this pay to win motto with their 1 hit kill 14 damage shotguns and donor armour that has 3x normal armour stats, i don't see the fun in everyone should just use the same weapon and everything that's not a shotgun and is able to kill me has to be nerfed so I always win with my shotguns...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper

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Originally Posted by Layne

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper

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Friendly snipers can be used to hunt the enemy sniper. Just get your own friendly sniper in TDM's and CW's :3

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Originally Posted by Layne

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper

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I know he detals of Sniper but the Gunzsniper its nice we can use it !

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Originally Posted by Colour

Friendly snipers can be used to hunt the enemy sniper. Just get your own friendly sniper in TDM's and CW's :3

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yes its hurts enemy to ~

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Originally Posted by jackD

yes its hurts enemy to ~

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no its not hurts Enemy :D

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Originally Posted by Colour

Shit like this should make you want to play here just because other weapons are actually able to kill shotgunners. Also all other populair servers have this pay to win motto with their 1 hit kill 14 damage shotguns and donor armour that has 3x normal armour stats, i don't see the fun in everyone should just use the same weapon and everything that's not a shotgun and is able to kill me has to be nerfed so I always win with my shotguns...

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Nah, from what i can see most people agrees snipers are op and you're not even trying to argue against that guy's point you're almost ignoring it which just proves that you're one of those guys that you can't persuade no matter how much times you're dumbfounded. Also your point doesn't even make any sense since it's quite clear that snipers are way more op than these shotguns or whatever but shotguns have been the game's meta weapon for the past 10 years and so far nobody's been complaining or saying it's boring so why would you want to change that now? Also tell me about what does pay2win have anything to do with this? if you can't afford to pay $20 to buy donors go work for 2hours and get some instead of typing these useless post all day long. Donors aren't even that op here with the exception of limitbreaker. Also tell me about why you're even talking about other servers when we're talking about this one and even if it had any relation if you see the snipers in other servers they are far more nerfed than the ones here so why you complaining?

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Originally Posted by Akimbo

Nah, from what i can see most people agrees snipers are op and you're not even trying to argue against that guy's point you're almost ignoring it which just proves that you're one of those guys that you can't persuade no matter how much times you're dumbfounded. Also your point doesn't even make any sense since it's quite clear that snipers are way more op than these shotguns or whatever but shotguns have been the game's meta weapon for the past 10 years and so far nobody's been complaining or saying it's boring so why would you want to change that now? Also tell me about what does pay2win have anything to do with this? if you can't afford to pay $20 to buy donors go work for 2hours and get some instead of typing these useless post all day long. Donors aren't even that op here with the exception of limitbreaker. Also tell me about why you're even talking about other servers when we're talking about this one and even if it had any relation if you see the snipers in other servers they are far more nerfed than the ones here so why you complaining?

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preach brotha, preach! i just gave up trying to talk 2 this tool. hes one of those hard headed kids just stuck in their ways.

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Originally Posted by Akimbo

Nah, from what i can see most people agrees snipers are op and you're not even trying to argue against that guy's point you're almost ignoring it which just proves that you're one of those guys that you can't persuade no matter how much times you're dumbfounded. Also your point doesn't even make any sense since it's quite clear that snipers are way more op than these shotguns or whatever but shotguns have been the game's meta weapon for the past 10 years and so far nobody's been complaining or saying it's boring so why would you want to change that now? Also tell me about what does pay2win have anything to do with this? if you can't afford to pay $20 to buy donors go work for 2hours and get some instead of typing these useless post all day long. Donors aren't even that op here with the exception of limitbreaker. Also tell me about why you're even talking about other servers when we're talking about this one and even if it had any relation if you see the snipers in other servers they are far more nerfed than the ones here so why you complaining?

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wasn't talking all snipers there, ownages got nerfed too, the first time it I was like okay i can see why they did that, second time was just some shotgunners complaining they still could get killed by someone using sprays, now they complain about snipers (which i still can understand too) but this just seems like ongoing until every single weapon that's not a shotgun ends up being nerfed....

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Originally Posted by Colour

wasn't talking all snipers there, ownages got nerfed too, the first time it I was like okay i can see why they did that, second time was just some shotgunners complaining they still could get killed by someone using sprays, now they complain about snipers (which i still can understand too) but this just seems like ongoing until every single weapon that's not a shotgun ends up being nerfed....

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learn 2 kstyle?

Tbh i don't really care much but give my saying some thought.

The game is called GunZ, not ShotGunZ :)

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Originally Posted by Noisia

Tbh i don't really care much but give my saying some thought.

The game is called GunZ, not ShotGunZ :)

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Everyone has their own perspective what weapon did they wanted to use. If the person likes Sniper more than SG then they should just use Sniper. It should be called as SniperZ if the majority of the player are using Sniper
And by the way GunZ is a game name and it shouldn't be renamed just because people used Shotgun more than Sniper.

"Sniper rifles were never properly coded into the game by MAIET, and thus Sniper Rifles are only coded into Korean GunZ (KGunZ)"

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Originally Posted by FreeWilly

you both just totally ignored what he said and took it way out of prospective. kstyle with shotguns are what made this game popular. before that it was a few hundred people running around with spray and the player base was the size of fgunz is now. once kstyle with shotguns came around the player base grew. so stop QQing about your OP weapons getting dummied cause you cant aim with a spread weapon. snipers werent even ment for gunz. its a private server exclusive. this game isnt ment to have you getting 1 shotted from half way to end of the map. Its shit like this that makes people not want 2 play this server.

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You really do need more precise aim for using a sniper then you need for an shotgun. Besides most guys using snipers tend to stay farther away because the pb hits are very strong against their own force.

Can't believe this thread is still ongoing ill quote from one of the 'best' snipers in the game who I was recently in a game with.

Fontana: 'This nerf was good I'm using Sniper + Revs and its way more fun then 2 Snipers.'

if this guy who was supposedly one of the 'best' dual-snipers users can adapt why cant the rest of you?

p.s. he wasnt one of the only snipers i've faced who has said this.

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Originally Posted by traumatis3r

Can't believe this thread is still ongoing ill quote from one of the 'best' snipers in the game who I was recently in a game with.

Fontana: 'This nerf was good I'm using Sniper + Revs and its way more fun then 2 Snipers.'

if this guy who was supposedly one of the 'best' dual-snipers users can adapt why cant the rest of you?

p.s. he wasnt one of the only snipers i've faced who has said this.

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You and me both, I had something recently and couldn't check here as much as I wish I could of. But I still think the issue is relevant. Gunz has been what it is because it's followed the players who wanted and enjoyed a high skill ceiling. If you start going against that, you take the route other games usually take. Which is not a bad thing for the "now". But it doesn't give long-time engaged players much more reason to play.