Potential Upcoming Dagger/Dual Kodachi changes

Hey folks,

We're in the process of trying to play around with unused weapons and need your feedback!

We have made the following changes and have uploaded two videos to demonstrate:

1) Dual Kodachi Block Animation increased in quickness by 80%
* This would mean that you could qbf with Kodachis. The downside is blocks with Kodachis are faster and the timing is harder.
2) Dual Kodachi damage will be reduced by 1/3rd.
3) Daggers can no longer flinch/'recoil' on block.
* This is commonly referred to as the 'recoil' animation. Your character cowers back in fear as if they've just seen a ghost.
* This does NOT effect the flinch from being slashed, only the block.
4) Dagger Reach will be increased slightly (190 -> 220) to maintain competitiveness with swords.

We're looking for your feedback to see if these would be welcomed changes. Please see the attached poll and select the options you would like to see.

Note we will be using the poll as a general guideline. If the community is divided on this issue, we'll make the choice that we feel is for the better of the game.

Videos below (pardon the snowy wind sounds, I was playing everquest in another window)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWV5f7XRG-k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKYNjc6x56k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CpAMntCR8s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7Lur_XRDi8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMo99h-l_JM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUdHyPiizw4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E16AoDJzTpo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1Os7pjF-do
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bo2vgpcqSA

yes I do believe that the daggers are useless against a sword in a gladiator match, meaning no one really uses it.
I guess buffing and adjusting it up would make it a bit more competitive (?)
side note;
http://gunzstats.vacau.com/image/Cakram.png
please add this ijji Dagger idk why never got added.

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Originally Posted by Hulk

yes I do believe that the daggers are useless against a sword in a gladiator match, meaning no one really uses it.
I guess buffing and adjusting it up would make it a bit more competitive (?)
side note;
http://gunzstats.vacau.com/image/Cakram.png
please add this ijji Dagger idk why never got added.

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Cakram should be in the files I'll double check. Odd that it's missing though I'll agree.

This is more of a non-gladiator buff to daggers; part of Dstyle in ijji was its evasiveness; take that away with anti-lead and you have a sword without block. Coupled with daggers needing to be lead more... if you try any of the ijji-era Dstyle techniques, they will not work as effectively. Most of the times they won't work at all, unless you can match shots one for one. Doing so is incredibly frustrating as a Dstyler as opposed to a Kstyler. The intention is to coax daggers into a more support position with their stabs 'flinching' other players as opposed to a tank with block (swords/dachis).

The buff to Dual Kodachis is moreso to keep them in line with swords - with the lessened block animation, you can do an extra slash and can qbf with them. (I'm sure our gladiators can penta-butterfly with them, but it'd be kind of hard). The intention is to put them in a more offensive position in terms of locking the opponent in gunplay, and to keep them slightly faster than Swords in Gladiator.

Lower delay kodachi plz so i can finally tbf :K

Okay so,as this is kinda what i was asking in my other thread.
Since I've been using daggers since version 6 I've noticed that back then it was a little more useful but now with anti lead it's become so under used.
But i have to say,i think it's unfair for you to remove recoil and would make ghost evading and phantom evading pretty much gone.
The dagger delay is so good now,it's just like ijji and it actually doesn't feel spam-able.
So really the only thing i would agree with is the dagger range increased. It's fair to get recoiled after stabbing someone straight on.
If you don't know,when you look down and try to stab someone straight on it doesn't recoil or do the animation.
Dagger machine (looking down and stabbing and circling the opponent) would be abusive as hell..
I say keep the recoil,increase the range.
Daggers aren't useless,it's just people's lack of knowledge about them that make them look inferior.

it's a hard choice for me since i do like to d-style once in a while ( yes i can yoyo , slingshot ,d machine ( not perfect) all the d-style tricks) but i also like to play with kodachis but kodachis are fine the way they are right now for me atleast i gotta agree with moh here ghost evading would be useless so therefore im choosing Option 4 (Daggers - Range Increase)

Don't understand why the changes on kodachi's are necessary. They are fine as they are, and glad players in general who are skilled a them are able to use them effectively e.g with the use of void step.

If you don't understand what I mean just look at the following video and see how well they can be used if used by a skilled player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Up6SHnEZt0

+ I'm pretty sure that if the kodachi's delay would to get reduced then it would just get abused by gunners since they rarely initiate with their sword and extra spamming blocking would just prevent them from getting initiate on by swords, making spbs less viable.

If you are actually going to add the 'no dagger recoil' you better remove that piece of shit dagger with 0 delay

Personally I would not remove the recoil, people who can actually use daggers know how to play around the recoil.

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Originally Posted by StephanM

Personally I would not remove the recoil, people who can actually use daggers know how to play around the recoil.

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Originally Posted by Moh

Daggers aren't useless,it's just people's lack of knowledge about them that make them look inferior.

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agree with this 100%. they aren't useless nor are they underpowered. people just tend to use swords more often because they're easier to use.

removing the recoil would just encourage dagger spam and you'll be trapped, heck this happens even now and is incredibly annoying.

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Originally Posted by Shino

agree with this 100%. they aren't useless nor are they underpowered. people just tend to use swords more often because they're easier to use.

removing the recoil would just encourage dagger spam and you'll be trapped, heck this happens even now and is incredibly annoying.

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It's ok, people will just kick these dagger users when they become annoying in the room. Like how I got kicked from every duels after pwning with them OP(Yes, OVERPOWERED) sprays(ESP Double MGS) and snipes :)
I mean, why make them op, if it cant be used in game. LOL EVERY1 WILL KICK U :) Just saying, I witnessed a gm kicking a guy from duel because the guy is spraying and killed him.

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Dagger machine (looking down and stabbing and circling the opponent) would be abusive as hell..

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As a dstyler - can you honestly say that it's fun and fair gameplay to recoil with a dagger after a block? There is no current way to cause a sword user to recoil as a dstyler - this is very one sided and a *clear balance issue* imo.

Recoil animation for swords makes a bit more sense as both of you can block.

And there is currently a bug where the recoil animation will not play in MAIETs code if your target is viewing at a certain angle, not relative to the dagger user, which is commonly referred to as dmachine. I don't like the idea of having to predict an opponent - who already can block to avoid ranged damage entirely if you're in dmachine range - to avoid a recoil animation which may be affected by frame lag.

As for the range idea I think putting them on 220 range - equal to Kodachis/Swords - is 'more than fair' for daggers. I would much rather see recoil removed than a range increase. And the poll will likely implement one, not both. I'm trusting the community with this one.

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Originally Posted by SecretsOTheP

As a dstyler - can you honestly say that it's fun and fair gameplay to recoil with a dagger after a block? There is no current way to cause a sword user to recoil as a dstyler - this is very one sided and a *clear balance issue* imo.

Recoil animation for swords makes a bit more sense as both of you can block.

And there is currently a bug where the recoil animation will not play in MAIETs code if your target is viewing at a certain angle, not relative to the dagger user, which is commonly referred to as dmachine. I don't like the idea of having to predict an opponent - who already can block to avoid ranged damage entirely if you're in dmachine range - to avoid a recoil animation which may be affected by frame lag.

As for the range idea I think putting them on 220 range - equal to Kodachis/Swords - is 'more than fair' for daggers. I would much rather see recoil removed than a range increase. And the poll will likely implement one, not both. I'm trusting the community with this one.

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As a d styler i would say it's not always fair but you could also get the sword user to massive,that would lead up to 4-5 more stabs behind them which seems fair to me.
Also there was a bug on aeria that when someone was stabbed as soon as they massived they would be in massive lock animation,that always felt good but i know it's probably not replicable on Fgunz.

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Originally Posted by Akimbo

Don't understand why the changes on kodachi's are necessary. They are fine as they are, and glad players in general who are skilled a them are able to use them effectively e.g with the use of void step.

If you don't understand what I mean just look at the following video and see how well they can be used if used by a skilled player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Up6SHnEZt0

+ I'm pretty sure that if the kodachi's delay would to get reduced then it would just get abused by gunners since they rarely initiate with their sword and extra spamming blocking would just prevent them from getting initiate on by swords, making spbs less viable.

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Fu ***** let me tbf

I think ''buff-ing'' the kodachi isnt fair, there are people that use macros for tbfing and this is already a shit, now imagine someone qbfing you in a corner
I think the damage of the kodachis are enough balanced
Removing the recoil from daggers will make people troll on a [M] tagged room, and ghost evade will disappear of the game
''buff-ing'' the range of the dagger is okay, but if someone have higher ping, he'll have lead and the range increase on your side, but it'll make it not ''useless''
anymore on glad
So, i vote on the range increase for daggers

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Originally Posted by SecretsOTheP

As a dstyler - can you honestly say that it's fun and fair gameplay to recoil with a dagger after a block? There is no current way to cause a sword user to recoil as a dstyler - this is very one sided and a *clear balance issue* imo.

Recoil animation for swords makes a bit more sense as both of you can block.

And there is currently a bug where the recoil animation will not play in MAIETs code if your target is viewing at a certain angle, not relative to the dagger user, which is commonly referred to as dmachine. I don't like the idea of having to predict an opponent - who already can block to avoid ranged damage entirely if you're in dmachine range - to avoid a recoil animation which may be affected by frame lag.

As for the range idea I think putting them on 220 range - equal to Kodachis/Swords - is 'more than fair' for daggers. I would much rather see recoil removed than a range increase. And the poll will likely implement one, not both. I'm trusting the community with this one.

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As a dstyler, i think it'll be easier to dmachine, and i dont want it, it would be so easy dmachine-pb people because youll not looking down to prevent recoils, and dmachining without shaking your camera and paying attention in every angle that you cn possibly get recoiled isnt fun

So far Option 1 and Option 4 are winning. If nothing changes in the next few days, I think we'll integrate these two.

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Originally Posted by Moh

Okay so,as this is kinda what i was asking in my other thread.
Since I've been using daggers since version 6 I've noticed that back then it was a little more useful but now with anti lead it's become so under used.
But i have to say,i think it's unfair for you to remove recoil and would make ghost evading and phantom evading pretty much gone.
The dagger delay is so good now,it's just like ijji and it actually doesn't feel spam-able.
So really the only thing i would agree with is the dagger range increased. It's fair to get recoiled after stabbing someone straight on.
If you don't know,when you look down and try to stab someone straight on it doesn't recoil or do the animation.
Dagger machine (looking down and stabbing and circling the opponent) would be abusive as hell..
I say keep the recoil,increase the range.
Daggers aren't useless,it's just people's lack of knowledge about them that make them look inferior.

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An elite dstyler due to antilead, swords range, etc. can't beat a true elite k styler, I've never seen it happen. Also, looking down still causes a recoil, otherwise kstylers that utilize angles would always look down.

can someone explain to me what dagger recoil is exactly? I used them every so often when I was still playing the game.
I have no knowledge of daggers though, I just liked a difference in playstyle once in a while, so what is it exactly?

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Originally Posted by Again

can someone explain to me what dagger recoil is exactly? I used them every so often when I was still playing the game.
I have no knowledge of daggers though, I just liked a difference in playstyle once in a while, so what is it exactly?

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im guessing its the "stunned" when you hit someone with dagger and hes blocking your slash i think thats what they mean with recoil

i call it stunned lol

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Originally Posted by Jetman

An elite dstyler due to antilead, swords range, etc. can't beat a true elite k styler, I've never seen it happen. Also, looking down still causes a recoil, otherwise kstylers that utilize angles would always look down.

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I've beaten elite k stylers without needing this buff. You can't tell me i need a baby buff to even the playing field. I know what needs to change and it's not removing recoil. Keep the recoil how it was originally.


Edit:Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it has never happened. I personally like how hard it is to beat someone that good,without a single slash shot.

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Originally Posted by Jetman

An elite dstyler due to antilead, swords range, etc. can't beat a true elite k styler, I've never seen it happen. Also, looking down still causes a recoil, otherwise kstylers that utilize angles would always look down.

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honestly, it doesn't even matter anymore. as long as you can aim, you can win.

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Originally Posted by Moh

I've beaten elite k stylers without needing this buff. You can't tell me i need a baby buff to even the playing field. I know what needs to change and it's not removing recoil. Keep the recoil how it was originally.


Edit:Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it has never happened. I personally like how hard it is to beat someone that good,without a single slash shot.

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I've seen it... on ijji, where you could evade shots.

Different story here.

Regardless I'm picking the top two options at this rate.

Thank you for voting everyone; expect to see Option 1 and Option 4 soon!