this spread aint it boys

Suggestion type:
Forum/FGunZ/Other

FGunZ

Suggestion description:

So after playing for quite a while it's come to my attention that the problems are just becoming worse and worse. I'd even go as far to say that the spread before the update was better.

While I know that we voted on a new spread, I believe the votes were pretty close between Vanilla and SG4. I myself voted for SG4 since it had better spread. Obviously the majority counts.

But is it perhaps possible to test this out in cw's? I feel like you'd get better feedback when cw'ers are testing out the spreads.

So I'd suggest to make a function like with the gladiator function, just to test it out for a week if that's possible. After that you can make an official poll to see which SG is better?

I don't want to mention other servers, but I think it's fair for you all to know the difference.

There's quite a few people from another server (won't name the server, but you'll probably know which one) that have had repeated arguments about hits not registering, which in-turn made them stop playing FGunZ all together. I feel as though if we fix this problem, that those people are here to stay. I think FGunZ is a good server, better than the other one if only the SG was on point. That's why I'm making this suggestion.

I agree completely, would be really nice to test a different spread.

Even though I'm partly to blame because I voted for SGV and SG4. In the first week of the new spread it kinda felt good, however though after some cw's with the SGV it was very noticeable that the spread is inconsistent. A lot of times it felt like damage didn't register properly but after turning on the shotgun spread it was obvious the spread is going everywhere and you can be just very unlucky.

Like Overdrive said its very hard to judge a spread based off of a couple duel rooms or TDM's because it just isn't competetive. Some cw's are won based on 1 shot difference so in these cases you really start to notice tiny differences and inconsistencies. So it would be really nice if we could test a different spread in cw.

With the current spread it sometimes feels like who has more luck on their side, will win. Honestly McSic already predicted this if I remember correctly.

9 dmg shots raining all over ok, and pills vials ruins cw bye

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Originally Posted by Tzunami best0

9 dmg shots raining all over ok, and pills vials ruins cw bye

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aye.. make seperate one for that cuz vials pills op :O

I agree, shots can be so inconsistent, like the dmg is completly randomised....

I fully agree!

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Originally Posted by o_o

I fully agree!

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im marrying u once marriage system is implemented <3

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Originally Posted by Overdrive

There's quite a few people from another server (won't name the server, but you'll probably know which one) that have had repeated arguments about hits not registering, which in-turn made them stop playing FGunZ all together. I feel as though if we fix this problem, that those people are here to stay.

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If hits not registering is the problem then it might not be the spread but something else.

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Originally Posted by Shang

If hits not registering is the problem then it might not be the spread but something else.

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It does register, but it's more like the damage isn't usually what it's supposed to be. Actually that might be the same as hits not registering, so I'm not sure then to be very honest.

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Originally Posted by Overdrive

It does register, but it's more like the damage isn't usually what it's supposed to be. Actually that might be the same as hits not registering, so I'm not sure then to be very honest.

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From my experience, hitting pbs are not as accurate as they should be. You know the drill, hitting a fat one from close range against someone and u think u do full 108 damage, but I notice most of the time that the pellets are going into the wall or floor instead of the target.

So I think there are 2 problems that are happening right now that are pretty similar. but (hopefully) solved with different outcomes;

1: The hitbox is too small for the wide spread we have (that might explain the hitting walls/floor from close range). So the hitbox needs to be a tiny bit bigger to match the wide spread we currently have.

2: The spread is too wide for the current hitbox. That means that we should go for a spread that is tighter than the current one and matches our current hitbox better. Since SG4 was the most popular spread behind vanilla, it might be a good idea we start with this one. Especially since SG4 is a tighter spread than vanilla ( if I remember this correctly).

This is based on my experience though (gardun room warrior). Since I barely cw anymore (not even at all actually), I don't have the same experience as you might have, so it might be completely different than your experience, but it is always nice to have different views on the topic :]

i dont think any spread will solve this low dmg issue (tho i still think a more static spread is superior to this RNG one so i support this), DMG is fine if you hit hard in the center of the hitbox, but most people don't, they hit near the edges resulting in low dmg hits.

I think the hitbox needs to be increased like on the other server and the spread maybe changed to whats suggested here

I agree with Overdrive. Damage is too random right now. It mostly works in my favor for some odd reason but I've also seen it not working with others. However, damage should be consistent and not random. Please introduce SG4 again so that we can test it, report our findings and ultimately, vote on it.

Yep just played a lot recently and something feels off, especially with my bad net. And people I played with constantly complained about it, so something must be done since hit registration is above everything else.

edit:

I tried to quick fix it on my debug server for fun - What I learned testing it - vanilla spread is too randomized since MAIET devs weren't thinking about k-style and such - my quick fix tries to keep the spread in a window and the key word is consistency. Vanilla generates too randomized spreads as such:
https://i.imgur.com/6OiMxCn.png
https://i.imgur.com/gejbRlv.png
.. Now imagine you're in a cw situation - the game just decides to generate the most random spread ever and the bullets go everywhere else but your crosshair.

[vanilla]
https://streamable.com/qm61qe

[My version of the vanilla spread with less randomization]
https://streamable.com/4rgahc

What I achieved with my quick fix:
https://i.imgur.com/pUHASkB.png https://i.imgur.com/24QdybX.png https://i.imgur.com/ASo5nEC.png

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Originally Posted by Shang

From my experience, hitting pbs are not as accurate as they should be. You know the drill, hitting a fat one from close range against someone and u think u do full 108 damage, but I notice most of the time that the pellets are going into the wall or floor instead of the target.

So I think there are 2 problems that are happening right now that are pretty similar. but (hopefully) solved with different outcomes;

1: The hitbox is too small for the wide spread we have (that might explain the hitting walls/floor from close range). So the hitbox needs to be a tiny bit bigger to match the wide spread we currently have.

2: The spread is too wide for the current hitbox. That means that we should go for a spread that is tighter than the current one and matches our current hitbox better. Since SG4 was the most popular spread behind vanilla, it might be a good idea we start with this one. Especially since SG4 is a tighter spread than vanilla ( if I remember this correctly).

This is based on my experience though (gardun room warrior). Since I barely cw anymore (not even at all actually), I don't have the same experience as you might have, so it might be completely different than your experience, but it is always nice to have different views on the topic :]

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Be aware that our hitbox and shotgun spread are the original ones. They're exactly what it's always been in GunZ on the official servers. (So you're really complaining about the original shotgun spread and hitboxes)

I told you [the community] about the random shotgun spray and it was brought up a long time ago by players, some of you have been there and seen it, we've done multiple attempts to fix it and gave players different options and let you play with different spreads for weeks (or months) even. All in all most of you said they want the original spread back, Ganggbangg is right that I told you it would not fix the issue of inconsistent damage and probably only make it worse, but most of you still wanted the SGV (vanilla) spread - and you got it. (I didn't wanna say I told you so, but yeah I told you so)

Shotguns with 12 pellets are certainly never gonna be perfect, that's just not possible with shotguns w/ large spray and this low amount of pellets (you see the same inconsistency in other popular games).

But at least it currently is the original, untouched, vanilla GunZ way.

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Originally Posted by McSic

I told you [the community] about the random shotgun spray and it was brought up a long time ago by players, some of you have been there and seen it, we've done multiple attempts to fix it and gave players different options and let you play with different spreads for weeks (or months) even. All in all most of you said they want the original spread back, Ganggbangg is right that I told you it would not fix the issue of inconsistent damage and probably only make it worse, but most of you still wanted the SGV (vanilla) spread - and you got it. (I didn't wanna say I told you so, but yeah I told you so)

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Ik u dont wanna deal with this spread stuff anymore, but heres my suggestion: sometimes you just gotta say **** it, no testing, no debates, no time waste. The community cant choose between that many options as proven and a few weeks of playtesting also wont do much. I say just keep it simple, no stress. Its been and is a problem for some people, so:
Just lower the randomization so its more crisp and that the weird spreads don't get generated that often. All the people that I talk to from the other server say that the hitbox/anti-lead is weird for them (really its the vanilla spread) people who play everyday say its weird, so it can be a problem.

My vision: lower the randomization, quick playtest, update game. Its a win - win. You cant lose by lowering RNG by a small margin and polishing it a bit! :D

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sometimes you just gotta say **** it, no testing, no debates, no time waste. The community cant choose between that many options as proven and a few weeks of playtesting also wont do much. I say just keep it simple, no stress. Its been and is a problem for some people, so:

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Haven't we been there? and how did that go? People would not prefer that at all over how things are now. And how are things now? People complaining about vanilla and we literally had a poll for the community to decide what spread we should have and now that's not good enough either. I think what Mc said

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Shotguns with 12 pellets are certainly never gonna be perfect, that's just not possible with shotguns w/ large spray and this low amount of pellets (you see the same inconsistency in other popular games).

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is just too true and it's something people should just have to come with terms with at this point.

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Originally Posted by McSic

Be aware that our hitbox and shotgun spread are the original ones. They're exactly what it's always been in GunZ on the official servers. (So you're really complaining about the original shotgun spread and hitboxes)

I told you [the community] about the random shotgun spray and it was brought up a long time ago by players, some of you have been there and seen it, we've done multiple attempts to fix it and gave players different options and let you play with different spreads for weeks (or months) even. All in all most of you said they want the original spread back, Ganggbangg is right that I told you it would not fix the issue of inconsistent damage and probably only make it worse, but most of you still wanted the SGV (vanilla) spread - and you got it. (I didn't wanna say I told you so, but yeah I told you so)

Shotguns with 12 pellets are certainly never gonna be perfect, that's just not possible with shotguns w/ large spray and this low amount of pellets (you see the same inconsistency in other popular games).

But at least it currently is the original, untouched, vanilla GunZ way.

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Dont get me wrong, I still like the vanilla spread a lot. I think its still 10000000% better and more consistent than the shite we had last time, but there are still quite a lot of people that are apparently unhappy with the changes after a few months. My 1 vote is less important than multiple others that are complaining about the current situation. I just told them and you, my current experiences with it. Ofc there will always be inconsistencies, but I don't have them as much as the last update. But since there are a lot of people that experience it differently, I am okay with seeing changes.

I just gave my personal explanation on how I think we can try to fix the problems others have (To make the hitbox a little bit bigger so there is more chance that the pellets hit on the body from close range), or to change the spread (the ones they are recommending, SG4) that might fit the current hitbox better than SG4.

I am fine either way, changing things or not. I am happy with how things are at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Linzor

Haven't we been there? and how did that go? People would not prefer that at all over how things are now. And how are things now? People complaining about vanilla and we literally had a poll for the community to decide what spread we should have and now that's not good enough either. I think what Mc said is just too true and it's something people should just have to come with terms with at this point.

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From my testing I look at this from a completely different perspective, why the need for polls and such, why the need for such complex thinking and planning? Why the need to playtest so much and make multiple spreads. I say keep it basic. What I did was shoot at the ****ing wall with bullet marks on and that gave me more info anyone can think up from just playing cw.

From my testing of the vanilla, its clear as day to me, that the whole problem with the spread is that it generates these random shits that just go flying at the the ground or in the the sky to ooga booga land, so taking that in to consideration, its an EASY FIX just lower the rng by a small margin, polish a bit and its fixed - everybody is happy :D! Vanilla is a good spread 80% of the time, but that 20% of the time which generates weird spreads makes people complain and get angry :)!

It generates this i meant, left, right, ground, sky everything but the middle of the crosshair:
https://i.imgur.com/6OiMxCn.png https://i.imgur.com/gejbRlv.png

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Originally Posted by Amers

Yep just played a lot recently and something feels off, especially with my bad net. And people I played with constantly complained about it, so something must be done since hit registration is above everything else.

edit:

I tried to quick fix it on my debug server for fun - What I learned testing it - vanilla spread is too randomized since MAIET devs weren't thinking about k-style and such - my quick fix tries to keep the spread in a window and the key word is consistency. Vanilla generates too randomized spreads as such:
https://i.imgur.com/6OiMxCn.png
https://i.imgur.com/gejbRlv.png
.. Now imagine you're in a cw situation - the game just decides to generate the most random spread ever and the bullets go everywhere else but your crosshair.

[vanilla]
https://streamable.com/qm61qe

[My version of the vanilla spread with less randomization]
https://streamable.com/4rgahc

What I achieved with my quick fix:
https://i.imgur.com/pUHASkB.png https://i.imgur.com/24QdybX.png https://i.imgur.com/ASo5nEC.png

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Honestly this post is the best to sum up the current problems.

I'm not saying it's bad, but sometimes it's just so random that when you're close to someone and hitting a point blank shot, you'd hope to see 108 damage on the meter, and sometimes that's just not the case. And there are times where I think I shoot like a tard, and actually do way more damage. It's way too inconsistent.

And like I said McSic, it's true that the poll said so, and I was probably partly to blame, because I voted for SGV and SG4. But perhaps Amers suggestion might help? I mean he quickly fixed the problem which we've all had.

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Originally Posted by Shang

Dont get me wrong, I still like the vanilla spread a lot. I think its still 10000000% better and more consistent than the shite we had last time, but there are still quite a lot of people that are apparently unhappy with the changes after a few months. My 1 vote is less important than multiple others that are complaining about the current situation. I just told them and you, my current experiences with it. Ofc there will always be inconsistencies, but I don't have them as much as the last update. But since there are a lot of people that experience it differently, I am okay with seeing changes.

I just gave my personal explanation on how I think we can try to fix the problems others have (To make the hitbox a little bit bigger so there is more chance that the pellets hit on the body from close range), or to change the spread (the ones they are recommending, SG4) that might fit the current hitbox better than SG4.

I am fine either way, changing things or not. I am happy with how things are at the moment.

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Yeah, good point Shang.

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Originally Posted by Overdrive

Honestly this post is the best to sum up the current problems.

I'm not saying it's bad, but sometimes it's just so random that when you're close to someone and hitting a point blank shot, you'd hope to see 108 damage on the meter, and sometimes that's just not the case. And there are times where I think I shoot like a tard, and actually do way more damage. It's way too inconsistent.

And like I said McSic, it's true that the poll said so, and I was probably partly to blame, because I voted for SGV and SG4. But perhaps Amers suggestion might help? I mean he quickly fixed the problem which we've all had.

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Amers has a good point, but Amers didn't fully fix the problem you have. The problem you have with the spray is that some shots don't deal the damage you expect. He reduced the amount of randomization. Though less randomization / more consistency is good, as you can see there is still randomization, so there are still pellets landing at random spots, just less often, but in conclusion that means it's still gonna happen and even if it only happens 10% of the time, you're still gonna be real pissed about those 10%. You know what I'm saying?

Though Shang has a point. We didn't really give the bigger hitboxes a proper chance because the gladders complained which made us roll back that change the same day. So yeah I could increase the hitbox size again, but this time make it so it's only increased in games that aren't glad / team glad / [glad] / glad cw, as to not affect gladders.

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Originally Posted by McSic

Though Shang has a point. We didn't really give the bigger hitboxes a proper chance because the gladders complained which made us roll back that change the same day. So yeah I could increase the hitbox size again, but this time make it so it's only increased in games that aren't glad / team glad / [glad] / glad cw, as to not affect gladders.

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Good idea! What do you think of this one? Hitbox increase.. with.. spread fix?! That's good because no more complaining, no way in hell anyones going to get a spread generated that ruins their kill, killstreak, clanwar or day. Players are happy, no more complaining, problem solved. That's going to be really cool!






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And if you were curious about what I did to the spread, first of all, https://i.imgur.com/ky5f3Oa.jpg when it comes to the gunz source, so I couldn't use many braincells, hours or Einstein logic and just made

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#define RANDOMFLOAT_FIX (rand() % (500 * 2)) / 1000.f

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float fForce = RANDOMFLOAT_FIX * SHOTGUN_DIFFUSE_RANGE; // new
and thats all.

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Originally Posted by McSic

Yeah, good point Shang.


Amers has a good point, but Amers didn't fully fix the problem you have. The problem you have with the spray is that some shots don't deal the damage you expect. He reduced the amount of randomization. Though less randomization / more consistency is good, as you can see there is still randomization, so there are still pellets landing at random spots, just less often, but in conclusion that means it's still gonna happen and even if it only happens 10% of the time, you're still gonna be real pissed about those 10%. You know what I'm saying?

Though Shang has a point. We didn't really give the bigger hitboxes a proper chance because the gladders complained which made us roll back that change the same day. So yeah I could increase the hitbox size again, but this time make it so it's only increased in games that aren't glad / team glad / [glad] / glad cw, as to not affect gladders.

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If it's easier to slash people with a bigger hitbox I can't wait to piss people off by only spb'ing in CW.

Serious though, why is there inconsistency in the shots, does the randomness have to be there? I would be happy if i know what shots deal high dmg up close and get used to those.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by McSic

Though Shang has a point. We didn't really give the bigger hitboxes a proper chance because the gladders complained which made us roll back that change the same day. So yeah I could increase the hitbox size again, but this time make it so it's only increased in games that aren't glad / team glad / [glad] / glad cw, as to not affect gladders.

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iirc that wasn't to do with a bigger hitbox directly, it was with some changes to the head of the character that completely broke some mechanics if I'm not wrong, regardless, couldn't you have 2 different hitboxes for anti-lead and LEAD based weapons like melee, nades & rockets so that those stay unaffected?

https://i.ibb.co/ZLHvGh2/spread.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/g7P8HrW/shotgun-Patterns.png

Maybe use a Fermant Spiral pattern? Here's a few with varied divergence angles.

Edit:

Quote:

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Be aware that our hitbox and shotgun spread are the original ones. They're exactly what it's always been in GunZ on the official servers. (So you're really complaining about the original shotgun spread and hitboxes)

I told you [the community] about the random shotgun spray and it was brought up a long time ago by players, some of you have been there and seen it, we've done multiple attempts to fix it and gave players different options and let you play with different spreads for weeks (or months) even. All in all most of you said they want the original spread back, Ganggbangg is right that I told you it would not fix the issue of inconsistent damage and probably only make it worse, but most of you still wanted the SGV (vanilla) spread - and you got it. (I didn't wanna say I told you so, but yeah I told you so)

Shotguns with 12 pellets are certainly never gonna be perfect, that's just not possible with shotguns w/ large spray and this low amount of pellets (you see the same inconsistency in other popular games).

But at least it currently is the original, untouched, vanilla GunZ way.

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Now that I think about it. Not fixing anything might be the way to go. RNG creates a lot of clusters which is actually the clustering illusion, so players may be experiencing something similar to the Texas sharpshooter fallacy, where people focus on where they didn't hit. In other words, people will complain no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Frooples

https://i.ibb.co/ZLHvGh2/spread.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/g7P8HrW/shotgun-Patterns.png

Maybe use a Fermant Spiral pattern? Here's a few with varied divergence angles.

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If they don't line up with the model/hitbox you'll have people deal less damage than expected (at close range) due to bullets missing the hitbox, so ideally you want a large spray that also covers most of the hitbox at close range.

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Originally Posted by Frooples

https://i.ibb.co/ZLHvGh2/spread.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/g7P8HrW/shotgun-Patterns.png

Maybe use a Fermant Spiral pattern? Here's a few with varied divergence angles.

Now that I think about. Not fixing anything might be the way to go. RNG creates a lot of clusters which is actually the clustering illusion, so players may be experiencing something like the inverse of the Texas sharpshooter fallacy, where people focus on where they didn't hit. In other words, people will complain no matter what.

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That pretty much sums it up, yes.

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Originally Posted by McSic

[/B]That pretty much sums it up, yes.

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I don't think thats correct. This is the only server where i sometimes feel severly disadvantaged because of the weird damage.

Somehow i don't experience this issue on other servers and i don't see people from other servers complain about the damage either.

There should be a way to tackle this issue since other servers have somehow managed to do so.

Even though its a pain in the ass i would really consider to add the SG4 spread to clanwars so there can be a direct comparison or find another way that can potentially improve it because it really feels off a lot of times

Some changes were done in the upcoming update.

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Originally Posted by Frooples

https://i.ibb.co/ZLHvGh2/spread.jpg

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This one is lit.

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Originally Posted by StephanM

This one is lit.

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Attachment 18010

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Originally Posted by StephanM

This one is lit.

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Next up; a spread that shoots in 360° around you

Oh, by the way. Are we taking into account that the bullets spawn in different locations based on whether the character is male or female? Especially when slash-shoting.