About revs

[ChloeOnFire]

You have to keep in mind that in the original GunZ there was no Anti-Lead, you had to lead with revs which made using them extremely hard gainst mid-high pings, thus the balance on FG. Because once Anti-Lead was added and revs had their default stats (damage, accuracy) they turned out to be pretty OP.

Anyway, sure we could increase the accuracy, not a problem. And rebalance other weapons.
Of course we couldn't test everything properly although we had staff and VIPs test it and give us feedback. Some stuff needs tweaking.

Your feedback and suggestions are always welcome.

the original gunz as you mentioned was originally ment to be played with low ping which is why it had no-lead e.g. kgunz where the ping average was 1-10, and even then they had revs and sgs same as ijji, its not OP tbh thats how it was meant to be played, maybe compared to other weapons they were OP but lets be real not many people care about other weapons (and the people who do care about other weapons usually play other game modes).

[S1lent]

Shotguns do not have "accuracy" they are always a random spread all at once, The accuracy stat has always been hidden but always a part of GunZ. I don't know if you can adjust the spread of SGs outside of pellets but I already made a full accuracy comparison chart here.

v
https://imgur.com/a/VS9UJ

Or you can just click the link in the post above and see that accuracy in v8 is the worst its ever been. In GunZ dual minic's were accurate and strong even at Lv1 and it was a goal to finally get to lv50 minic's and have the best accuracy and dmg for revs. Revs are sniping precision weapons, just because we have an actual Sniper doesnt mean revs should get the shaft. The lv99 revs are still trashy, and I highly doubt the upgrades will do much more for it since they only make extremely marginal difference in accuracy like 1% for an upgrade of a Heavy MG. Which is a joke.

Thus far McSic or other FG staff had good intentions but did a poor execution on balancing. Revs are only part of the problem, but that's what the thread is about. It's not like any other game has never gotten balancing tweaks after official launches so expect things to change in the future, but believing they got it perfect with no real playtesting outside of their own bubble is wishful thinking and really naive, we're more in v8's public beta launch.

It would be useful to know the accuracy stats of official GunZ weapons when comparing balance in v8.

I like your chart.

[Qwin]

Your feedback and suggestions are always welcome.

The problem with the revs right now is we're in a Ellan SMGs (Maiets worst Gun ever made) scenario where even if the weapon did high damage it's so inaccurate that it's basically worthless for any real practical use. I know the light and heavy class idea weapons came from me but it could have been handled better.

I could be wrong but I dont think even Maiet made Dynaxes 50% accuracy and those were a sub class. I don't think revs should ever go near 50% accuracy just leaving it to a coinflip, unless we're talking about the official Dynaxes which had a delay of 260, revs just do not have the clip to spare for that sort of thing to leave it up to luck when it's purely based on 1 bullet at a time, unlike the rest of the guns. And another thing thats puzzling is giving the L revs less ammo than the H revs. The Dynaxes Maiet did had 8 per clip but Minic's only had 6.

MAIET made 3 classes of revs from the start.
(L) Dynaxes (Fast and weak, more ammo, very inaccurate)
(S) Minic and Zarus (all around good and very accurate)
(H) Phantoms (sloppy accuracy, but heavy damage)

In MAIETs GunZ it felt good to use the revs specifically the standard Minics, and like Chloe said, its how they were intended to be used from the start with no leading. For the most part it's a weapon you could count on, and with the gems and rings pushing people up to 140hp easily, I would say it's pretty much required that weapons are reliable.

[Qwin]

After asking for the real stats MAIET made, I was pointed to a dump and told that "Control" was MAIETS stat for accuracy, but it's based off an obscure graph with 200. So doing some simple math, here are the real stats of how accurate revs used to be, and they should be in this ballpark.

I was mistaken about Zaurus that's actually part of the Heavy class with more dmg but an inaccurate shot you could opt for higher damage at lower levels but eventually the Zaurus B had the best of all worlds beating Minic's out with faster delay, but the same accuracy and damage.

-------------------------------------------------------Class L------------------------------------------------
▲ Lower Delay ▲ Larger Clip ▼ Lower Damage ▼Lower Accuracy

Dynax 7000 60/200 = 30% -> 70% Accuracy
Level Required: 7 Weight: 7
Rounds per clip: 8 Max Rounds: 64
Delay: 300 Attack: 14
Control: 60 Price: 220

Dynax 8000 60/200 = 60% -> 70% Accuracy
Level Required: 26 Weight: 7
Rounds per clip: 8 Max Rounds: 64
Delay: 300 Attack: 18
Control: 60 Price: 4000

Dynax 7000 x2 72/200 = 36% -> 64% Accuracy
Level Required: 9 Weight: 14
Rounds per clip: 8 Max Rounds: 64
Delay: 300 Attack: 28
Control: 72 Price: 396

Dynax 8000 x2 72/200 = 36% -> 64% Accuracy
Level Required: 28 Weight: 14
Rounds per clip: 8 Max Rounds: 64
Delay: 300 Attack: 36
Control: 72 Price: 7200

-------------------------------------------------------Class S------------------------------------------------
▲ Higher Accuracy ■ Good Damage ■ Norm Delay ■Norm Clip

Minic 567 Limited 50/200 = 25% -> 75% Accuracy
Level Required: 7 Weight: 8
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 18
Control: 50 Price: 340

Minic MK II 50/200 = 25% -> 75% Accuracy
Level Required: 34 Weight: 8
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 25
Control: 50 Price: 7200

Zaurus B 50/200 = 25% -> 75% Accuracy
Level Required: 42 Weight: 8
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 360 Attack: 25
Control: 50 Price: 12000

Minic 567 60/200 = 30% -> 70% Accuracy
Level Required: 0 Weight: 8
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 16
Control: 60 Price: 20

Minic 567 Limited x2 60/200 = 30% -> 70% Accuracy
Level Required: 9 Weight: 16
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 36
Control: 60 Price: 612

Minic MK II x2 60/200 = 30% -> 70% Accuracy
Level Required: 36 Weight: 16
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 50
Control: 60 Price: 12600

Zaurus B x2 60/200 = 30% -> 70% Accuracy
Level Required: 46 Weight: 16
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 360 Attack: 50
Control: 60 Price: 21600

Minic 567 x2 72/200 = 36% -> 64% Accuracy
Level Required: 0 Weight: 16
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 32
Control: 72 Price: 40

-------------------------------------------------------Class H------------------------------------------------
▲Higher Damage ▼Lower Accuracy ■ Norm Delay ■ Norm Clip

Zaurus A 60/200 = 30% -> 70% Accuracy
Level Required: 10 Weight: 7
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 20
Control: 60 Price: 550

Phantom Cruise N 65/200 = 32.5%-> 68.5% Accuracy
Level Required: 21 Weight: 8
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 23
Control: 65 Price: 2500

Phantom Cruise 70/200 = 35% -> 65% Accuracy
Level Required: 16 Weight: 9
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 22
Control: 70 Price: 1200

Zaurus A x2 72/200 = 36% -> 64% Accuracy
Level Required: 12 Weight: 14
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 40
Control: 72 Price: 990

Phantom Cruise N x2 78/200 = 39% -> 61% Accuracy
Level Required: 23 Weight: 16
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 46
Control: 78 Price: 4500

Phantom Cruise x2 84/200 = 42% -> 58% Accuracy
Level Required: 18 Weight: 18
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 44
Control: 84 Price: 2160

----------------
Now look at v8's rev stats and there's a clear problem. The revs in v8 all have around Dynax accuracy which was a total spray class, and thats the best of v8's revs can offer from there it only gets worse dropping below even Dynax and Phantom's pitiful accuracy. There's just no way this is acceptable in any stretch, using revs should be able to do precision shots but in v8 instead it's a total crapshot.

[McSic]

After asking for the real stats MAIET made, I was pointed to a dump and told that "Control" was MAIETS stat for accuracy, but it's based off an obscure graph with 200. So doing some simple math, here are the real stats of how accurate revs used to be, and they should be in this ballpark.

I was mistaken about Zaurus that's actually part of the Heavy class with more dmg but an inaccurate shot you could opt for higher damage at lower levels but eventually the Zaurus B had the best of all worlds beating Minic's out with faster delay, but the same accuracy and damage.

-------------------------------------------------------Class L------------------------------------------------
▲ Lower Delay ▲ Larger Clip ▼ Lower Damage ▼Lower Accuracy

Dynax 7000 60/200 = 30% -> 70% Accuracy
Level Required: 7 Weight: 7
Rounds per clip: 8 Max Rounds: 64
Delay: 300 Attack: 14
Control: 60 Price: 220

Dynax 8000 60/200 = 60% -> 70% Accuracy
Level Required: 26 Weight: 7
Rounds per clip: 8 Max Rounds: 64
Delay: 300 Attack: 18
Control: 60 Price: 4000

Dynax 7000 x2 72/200 = 36% -> 64% Accuracy
Level Required: 9 Weight: 14
Rounds per clip: 8 Max Rounds: 64
Delay: 300 Attack: 28
Control: 72 Price: 396

Dynax 8000 x2 72/200 = 36% -> 64% Accuracy
Level Required: 28 Weight: 14
Rounds per clip: 8 Max Rounds: 64
Delay: 300 Attack: 36
Control: 72 Price: 7200

-------------------------------------------------------Class S------------------------------------------------
▲ Higher Accuracy ■ Good Damage ■ Norm Delay ■Norm Clip

Minic 567 Limited 50/200 = 25% -> 75% Accuracy
Level Required: 7 Weight: 8
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 18
Control: 50 Price: 340

Minic MK II 50/200 = 25% -> 75% Accuracy
Level Required: 34 Weight: 8
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 25
Control: 50 Price: 7200

Zaurus B 50/200 = 25% -> 75% Accuracy
Level Required: 42 Weight: 8
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 360 Attack: 25
Control: 50 Price: 12000

Minic 567 60/200 = 30% -> 70% Accuracy
Level Required: 0 Weight: 8
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 16
Control: 60 Price: 20

Minic 567 Limited x2 60/200 = 30% -> 70% Accuracy
Level Required: 9 Weight: 16
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 36
Control: 60 Price: 612

Minic MK II x2 60/200 = 30% -> 70% Accuracy
Level Required: 36 Weight: 16
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 50
Control: 60 Price: 12600

Zaurus B x2 60/200 = 30% -> 70% Accuracy
Level Required: 46 Weight: 16
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 360 Attack: 50
Control: 60 Price: 21600

Minic 567 x2 72/200 = 36% -> 64% Accuracy
Level Required: 0 Weight: 16
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 32
Control: 72 Price: 40

-------------------------------------------------------Class H------------------------------------------------
▲Higher Damage ▼Lower Accuracy ■ Norm Delay ■ Norm Clip

Zaurus A 60/200 = 30% -> 70% Accuracy
Level Required: 10 Weight: 7
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 20
Control: 60 Price: 550

Phantom Cruise N 65/200 = 32.5%-> 68.5% Accuracy
Level Required: 21 Weight: 8
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 23
Control: 65 Price: 2500

Phantom Cruise 70/200 = 35% -> 65% Accuracy
Level Required: 16 Weight: 9
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 22
Control: 70 Price: 1200

Zaurus A x2 72/200 = 36% -> 64% Accuracy
Level Required: 12 Weight: 14
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 40
Control: 72 Price: 990

Phantom Cruise N x2 78/200 = 39% -> 61% Accuracy
Level Required: 23 Weight: 16
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 46
Control: 78 Price: 4500

Phantom Cruise x2 84/200 = 42% -> 58% Accuracy
Level Required: 18 Weight: 18
Rounds per clip: 6 Max Rounds: 48
Delay: 400 Attack: 44
Control: 84 Price: 2160

----------------
Now look at v8's rev stats and there's a clear problem. The revs in v8 all have around Dynax accuracy which was a total spray class, and thats the best of v8's revs can offer from there it only gets worse dropping below even Dynax and Phantom's pitiful accuracy. There's just no way this is acceptable in any stretch, using revs should be able to do precision shots but in v8 instead it's a total crapshot.

Uh huh.

So looking at the ctrl_ability: 50, 60, 72 up to 84. Our revs are in this ballpark.
Lower ctrl_ability = higher accuracy.





Correct me if I'm wrong but our revs have a higher accuracy (ctrl ability 51 for light and 62 for heavy) than lots of Maiet's. None of our revs even get close to being as bad as Maiets worst (70, 72, 78, 84).

The accuracy difference between ctrl_ability 51 and 50 is 0.74% (62.22% vs 62.96%). Which really isn't that much.

[S1lent]

I guess they all aren't as good as they remembered them to be on ijji. Nostalgia does that.

[Bunny]

Maybe its related to how people shoot when they see the enemy marked in red and since thats unreliable they consider the revs not as accurate as they were?

[Fay]

I guess they all aren't as good as they remembered them to be on ijji. Nostalgia does that.

Never played ijji, never played any other server than V6 and V7 FGunZ.

Maybe its related to how people shoot when they see the enemy marked in red and since thats unreliable they consider the revs not as accurate as they were?

No, if you and your oppenent stand completely still you still have a big chance of missing.

[Qwin]

Uh huh.

So looking at the ctrl_ability: 50, 60, 72 up to 84. Our revs are in this ballpark.
Lower ctrl_ability = higher accuracy.

https://puu.sh/y3u6h/b5c15caf67.png

https://puu.sh/y3u62/2769a6f9a5.png

Correct me if I'm wrong but our revs have a higher accuracy (ctrl ability 51 for light and 62 for heavy) than lots of Maiet's. None of our revs even get close to being as bad as Maiets worst (70, 72, 78, 84).

The accuracy difference between ctrl_ability 51 and 50 is 0.74% (62.22% vs 62.96%). Which really isn't that much.

Thanks for sharing the code but I'm not satisfied with this.

Somewhere the math looks wrong on displaying the code vs the accuracy rating in game. It seems like it's in the ball park for Lights vs Heavys so I will let that go, but I don't feel like this peek at the XML tells the full story... In v8 all x2 weapons suffer significant loss on Accuracy far worse than ever, in v8 the accuracy drops by 10+% while Maiet's x2's only dropped around 5% in accuracy to dual weild. Revs x2 is what people are used to be using for the highest damage to combat shotguns, so we need more info. Is there a sort of multiplier for punishing x2 weapons or is this all manually added? Is the rev stats in the XML accounting for the "upgrades" to lv2 and lv3 or are those seperate?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
According to xml stats: W/ applied math should display in the Shop...

1. Control, is what percent of 200 = _%
2. % of 100 minus 100 = Accuracy %

51 for light revs
51/200 Control = 25.5% -> 74.5% Accuracy

62 for heavy revs
62/200Control = 31% -> 69% Accuracy

--------------------------------------------------------------------
According to FG V8 Shop: W/ reversed math should be in the XML...

1. Accuracy %, minus 100, = _% of 100
2. _% of 100, What is _% of 200 = Control

Light rev "71% Accuracy" -> 29% -> 57/200 Control
Heavy rev "62% Accuracy" -> 38% -> 76/200 Control

Light x2 "62% Accuracy" -> 38% -> 76/200 Control
Heavy x2 "54% Accuracy" -> 66% -> 132/200 Control

-----------------------
A single revolver seems to be okay, but the v8 x2 weapons look to be far worse than MAIET's and frankly unusable. In the meantime if people want to have any sort of reliable accuracy id suggest using the single Revs.

[McSic]

Thanks for sharing the code but I'm not satisfied with this.

Somewhere the math looks wrong on displaying the code vs the accuracy rating in game. It seems like it's in the ball park for Lights vs Heavys so I will let that go, but I don't feel like this peek at the XML tells the full story... In v8 all x2 weapons suffer significant loss on Accuracy far worse than ever, in v8 the accuracy drops by 10+% while Maiet's x2's only dropped around 5% in accuracy to dual weild. Revs x2 is what people are used to be using for the highest damage to combat shotguns, so we need more info. Is there a sort of multiplier for punishing x2 weapons or is this all manually added? Is the rev stats in the XML accounting for the "upgrades" to lv2 and lv3 or are those seperate?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
According to xml stats: W/ applied math should display in the Shop...

1. Control, is what percent of 200 = _%
2. % of 100 minus 100 = Accuracy %

51 for light revs
51/200 Control = 25.5% -> 74.5% Accuracy

62 for heavy revs
62/200Control = 31% -> 69% Accuracy

--------------------------------------------------------------------
According to FG V8 Shop: W/ reversed math should be in the XML...

1. Accuracy %, minus 100, = _% of 100
2. _% of 100, What is _% of 200 = Control

Light rev "71% Accuracy" -> 29% -> 57/200 Control
Heavy rev "62% Accuracy" -> 38% -> 76/200 Control

Light x2 "62% Accuracy" -> 38% -> 76/200 Control
Heavy x2 "54% Accuracy" -> 66% -> 132/200 Control

-----------------------
A single revolver seems to be okay, but the v8 x2 weapons look to be far worse than MAIET's and frankly unusable. In the meantime if people want to have any sort of reliable accuracy id suggest using the single Revs.

The accuracy calculation is done differently.

However, you should look at the ctrl_ability stat only. There's no multiplier to punish x2 weapons. Nothing has been done to make x2 weapon's accuracy worse on purpose. It all comes down to ctrl_ability. If our x2 revolver has a ctrl_ability of 51 (v8 light revolvers) and maiet's x2 revolver has a ctrl_ability of 60, our x2 revolver is (or should be) more accurate. So I have no explanation for what you're experiencing.

But I just checked the XMLs myself. Maiet (or rather: Aeria) had 2 dual revolvers with a ctrl_ability of 36. Iris Revolver x2, Iron Crow Revolver x2, which also dealt much less damage (38, 42). All other x2 revolvers had a much higher ctrl_ability (60 to 72, up to 90 (Peacemaker x2)).

Anyway, as I said in post #10, we can increase the accuracy (which means decreasing the ctrl_ability), not a problem.