Results 1 to 9 of 9
  1. #1
    Bunny's Avatar woof.

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Country
    Posts
    5,292
    Thanked
    2,873
    Thanks
    1,244
    IGN of reported player:
    ^9Amamin^N
    Reason:
    As per the host's request, I was to report this instead of being respawned because he didn't wish to stall the event any further. The host is being reported for killing the incorrect circle in a true/false VIP event.
    The question was: Force = Mass * Acceleration.
    A very quick google search for a discerning eye shows that the equation as stated by Newton as his second law of motion is:

    Using the commonly used assumption that the object's mass is constant, we arrive at the true/false question's formula, because mass is constant with respect to time, and the only derivative is that of velocity (Acceleration). but in a generic case, as described by the true/false statement which had no assumptions regarding mass change, and as used in classical rocket propulsion balance equations, momentum changes over time due to mass change, not just velocity and the stated formula is incorrect. The host killed the people in the "False" circle, even though that was the correct answer.
    Proof/Evidence:
    https://puu.sh/ITIq7/76f27f9f07.gzr
    Last edited by Bunny; 04-09-2022 at 06:17 PM.

  2. #2
    Amamin's Avatar Babyboi

    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Country
    Posts
    262
    Thanked
    452
    Thanks
    146
    I will leave this up for the GMs to decide, but I would like to clarify that I did not request to be reported. You told me you were going to report me if I persisted with saying that Force = Mass * Acceleration is a TRUE statement so that the we can move on with the event. So I said report me if you must.

    I based this answer on this part of the Wikipedia entry as well as some basic physics teaching websites like this https://www.texasgateway.org/resourc...d-acceleration. Admittedly I know very little of the field and I didn't have time to ruminate on the concept. I'm not exactly in a STEM field either and I haven't been to high school for almost a decade at this point to remember basic physics equations.

    I based this decision on the fact that it didn't seem like it was a FALSE statement either. Based on what I understood, saying it's a FALSE statement seemed more incorrect than saying it's a TRUE statement.

    But yeah that's pretty much all I have to say about it.

  3. #3
    champlooTTV's Avatar Twitch Streamer

    Join Date
    Sep 2021
    Country
    Posts
    55
    Thanked
    34
    Thanks
    51
    Okay, when you solve for the Force of something, you're solving for it at a specific moment... you're not solving an average. So, when you solve F=(ma)d/dt you will pull m out as a constant, giving you F=m((a)d/dt). You're talking about including the change of mass in a scenario... If that's what you were looking for, then the Force (F) would be notated with an integral before the F AND m would have to be changed to (dm) to represent (dm/dt) (change of mass over time).

    tldr; Amamin is right.
    source: high school physics and 10 years as a mechanical engineer.
    Last edited by champlooTTV; 04-09-2022 at 08:18 PM.

  4. #4
    Bunny's Avatar woof.

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Country
    Posts
    5,292
    Thanked
    2,873
    Thanks
    1,244
    Originally Posted by champlooTTV View Post
    Okay, when you solve for the Force of something, you're solving for it at a specific moment... you're not solving an average.
    When you solve for the "Force of something", you are attempting to find the force required in order to accelerate a body to a given state. This has nothing to do with averages.

    Originally Posted by champlooTTV View Post
    So, when you solve F=(ma)d/dt you will pull m out as a constant, giving you F=m((a)d/dt).
    Incorrect. The generic form for differentiation of a multiplication is given by:

    This is, as described, for a case where one cannot simplify the expression by treating mass as constant when its changing.

    Originally Posted by champlooTTV View Post
    You're talking about including the change of mass in a scenario... If that's what you were looking for, then the Force (F) would be notated with an integral before the F AND m would have to be changed to (dm) to represent (dm/dt) (change of mass over time).
    Newton's second law of motion does not describe a point in time where you would calculate the forces therein, because it's an inertial equation and it holds true as a function of time, hence derivative over time.
    Adding an integral before external forces in the equation has nothing to do with the law itself, rather, it is a way of calculating work done over time by a force, exerting acceleration on an object.
    If you were to somehow decide you wanted to integrate over the forces, youll be able to find the final velocity of the object given initial conditions.

    In his original scripts, Newton developed his law with the idea that forces applied to a body are equal to the change of momentum over time. He did not simplify the expression to the known F=m*a that most highschool students know today, because it would simply not be inclusive of every case. This, for example, happens when you study flow dynamics and realize that internal body forces, external forces, conservation of mass, momentum and energy need to be given in their most generic state, and based on assumptions, simplified to known terms.

    I frankly don't understand why I need to convince someone with "10 years mechanical engineer" experience who should've taken the basics physics 101 course and probably many more physics courses due to the nature of the degree and have seen this for themselves, the phrasing of Newton's second law of motion.
    Last edited by Bunny; 04-09-2022 at 08:52 PM.

  5. #5
    champlooTTV's Avatar Twitch Streamer

    Join Date
    Sep 2021
    Country
    Posts
    55
    Thanked
    34
    Thanks
    51
    ...Let me get this straight, because don't forget bunny, this is a game of true and false. You're trying to argue that F=ma is FALSE? I would think that somebody who contributes so much to the FGunZ community could find something more productive to do with their time. Thanks for playing, hope to see you at the next VIP Event.

  6. #6
    Bunny's Avatar woof.

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Country
    Posts
    5,292
    Thanked
    2,873
    Thanks
    1,244
    In the most generic context with which it was provided? Yes. It's wrong.
    Why would a host use such a question? Did Amamin expect anyone to go to false on that question? But know this much; if a host who was trying to catch players off guard as is often and was always a recurring theme in these and simon says-related events, and knew the deeper context to the equation, then he really would have killed people who went to true.
    My case is made - you cant expect players to know when it is that you want to be specific about the details of a question and when you feel like just giving an ambiguous question and pretend people to know the answer because "oh its obvious that's what i meant", except when it isn't and players die for it.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Mg4wZqfLOI
    Last edited by Bunny; 04-09-2022 at 09:59 PM.

  7. #7
    champlooTTV's Avatar Twitch Streamer

    Join Date
    Sep 2021
    Country
    Posts
    55
    Thanked
    34
    Thanks
    51
    You can't expect players to what? You were literally the only person who got the question wrong. So everybody else understood, except you.

  8. #8
    Bunny's Avatar woof.

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Country
    Posts
    5,292
    Thanked
    2,873
    Thanks
    1,244
    Originally Posted by champlooTTV View Post
    You can't expect players to what? You were literally the only person who got the question wrong. So everybody else understood, except you.
    That was not the intent behind my statement. I'm saying the event team shrugs off tricks they perform to confuse players as intentional and have the players accept them until the event team itself gets tricked because they havent figured all the possible ways to answer a question or perform an action. However, that is irrelevant to this report because the plain and simple answer to the question of whether F=m*a is literally false.
    Last edited by Bunny; 04-09-2022 at 10:36 PM.

  9. #9
    Ommadawn's Avatar Bird + Trash = ?

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Country
    Posts
    11,423
    Thanked
    2,775
    Thanks
    1,801
    I see this is going to nowhere, but basically I'll say this: both of you are correct, both of the formulas are correct. The problem is that Amamin was thinking about one thing and Bunny was thinking about another thing, you can't actually pick someone and say "you're the wrong one" so this is a bit of a grey area. In my opinion, Amamin should of been more specific but I do not consider it as a mistake. As it was stated above, he knows very little of the field and he linked the website he took this formula from, maybe it wasn't a good idea to ask something about physics but that's a different topic. We're talking about True & False event, it is known that sometimes the ETs take questions from Google because they cannot use the same questions every time they host this event and no one expects them to read an article about whales (as an example) if they wanna ask a question about whales.

    Overall, I understand your point of view and I understand his point of view as well, there isn't a solid answer since both of you are not wrong.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)