Is it all about aim? What about movement? Aim versus movement? Or aim AND movement? TBF vs DBF? Yoyo or Blinkstep? How come when I dstyle in town, I feel like im being shot all over? Why do I have trouble dstyling in the open and its easier in garden? Why do I keep losing and I'm trying so hard I only missed one shot!!
lol, I believe I have all the answers now that lead me to understand that you can use dstyle and learn it and know for sure you are learning a style that is not only equal to kstyle (I did not say dstylers can now equal kstylers, im talking about the styles themselves, their limits, dstyle is now equal to kstyle for a fact, known to me only and a few friends, but that's about to change) but dstyle can now be better than kstyle. Anyway this is supposed to be the clean version without lots of stuff to read. Here:
Ranking System: - Dmg Rank: , Evasion Rank: , Maneuverability:
Each and every move in GunZ the Duel, I can put in this ranking system. Everything is ranked out of 10. 10 Being the lowest and 1 being the best possible rank. Dmg stands for damage. Evasion means how evasive a user of the move can be against incoming bullets. Maneuverability is how well you can move around while doing/chaining the move, how well you can close distance with the move and also how well it is possible to avoid a double butterfly user from catching up to you without you needed to stop chaining the move and do another move to gain distance. Damage is what is the maximum possible damage a user of a move can do. This ranking system only works with shotguns however. I haven't gone out of that margin for now.
I will explain how I rank how much damage a player can do with a move in depth, everything else I'll explain later.
Damage example 1: 2 Players, Player A, and Player B. Both players have the exact same rifle, the exact same stats, 100HP and 100AP. And they are both standing on flat ground with their rifles aimed at each other. Both players have 100% accuracy. They are at mid range distance apart from each other ( about 2- 3 tumbles away from each other). A count down from 3 to 1 begins and both players begin to spray each other at the exact same time when the number one is called out. Both players hit all shots from the rifle on each other. Who dies first? (Submitting this thread to get an answer for this question, after that, will continue the thread)
Answer:
Originally Posted by
-AznNinja
o so both of em die at the same time
Damage example 2: Player A and B both died at the exact same time in example 1 because both are doing their most possible damage with their rifles (both are holding down left click till death). Now let's add in some variables, if player A just holds down left click the whole time and player B has a faulty computer mouse and left click goes unresponsive for a split second, resulting in the rifle to stop shooting for a second and immediately continue after that, player B is now behind in damage by at least 1 shot, let's assume it is by 1 shot. Who dies first? Player A who had no problems, or player B who's mouse stopped; made his character stop shooting for a split second.
Answer:
Originally Posted by
-AznNinja
player b
Player B dies first because he is now behind in the damage battle by 1 shot, resulting in player A getting all the shots required to kill, first. And Player B, being 1 shot away from killing player A at the same time, upon death.
Assume both players had 50 shots before having to reload with their rifles and assume it takes 50 shots to kill each other in these examples. So that would mean, in example #1, both players died upon emptying their clip, all 50 shots, and in example #2, player B shot 49 shots leaving Player A with 1 HP(just say).
Now, let's convert this towards GunZ moves and their damage.
Damage Example 3: Take the same situation set up in example 1, but this time, instead of rifles, both players have two shotguns equip. Holding down left click to spray and empty out 50 bullets in example 1 is the equivalent to shooting at the maximum possible speed with two shotguns equipped, which would be reload shotting over and over again, 10/10 shots until ammo is emptied. Let's assume both players both have the exact same shot guns and all shotguns do 10 damage, just for example. Both players are and a stand-still, and a count down begins, from 3 to 1 and both players start reload shotting at the same time when the number 1 is called out. Remember, the same set up is being used, mid distance apart, from each other and so on, besides the rifles this time. So who dies first this time?
Answer:
Originally Posted by
-AznNinja
same result as first example, both die at same time?
Damage Example 4: With the same variables as in example #3 in mind, remember example 2? Where one player's mouse messed up and put them behind damage, losing the chance to get in an extra shot, the final shot to kill on the other player. That little glitch with the mouse will be our slash shot in this example. So if both players start reload shooting on 1 on a count down from 3 to 1, and Player A and player B is doing fine, and say both players have 10 shots in total before reloading and say at this distance, it takes all 10 shots to kill each other. After a few shots, Player B decides to do one slash shot and continues to reload shot after that, and Player A continues to just reload shot. Remember, both players have 100% accuracy, who dies first? Player A that just used reload shot? Or Player B, that reload shoots but also does one slash shot?
Answer:
Originally Posted by
soni
Player B dies
Player B dies and Player A lives because the slash shot is doing nothing for them here, it's just majorly putting them behind in the damage battle to kill the opponent before they die. Catching on? Why stop doing your possible maximum damage if the result raises your chances of losing the fight? Remember, this is a 1 on 1 example. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Player B to win in this example.
Damage Example 5: Again, still using the same variables with Player A and Player B, but this time Player A will be using Blinkstep and Player B will be using Slash shot (reload slash shot). With the same distance apart as in the above examples, Player A will be blinkstepping (reload blinkstep, which is just pressing reload after shooting to switch faster after a gun shot's recoil) side to side, from left to right repeatedly until he/she empties the clip (10 shots in total before reloading). Meanwhile, Player B will be slash shooting from left to right until using up all 10 shots. Remember, both have 100% accuracy and stay at mid range distance from each other, who dies?
Answer:
Originally Posted by
-AznNinja
blinkstepper dies a fateful death
Player A dies because they were using only Blinkstep against Player B, whom used only slash shot. A player shot within blinkstep is delayed by the user of blinkstep having to wait until the maximum exact height of a jump animation before even starting the move. With slashshot, the user does not have to wait until height of jump and can actually cancel jump with a dash and slash while switching weapons to shoot. Therefore, Player B's shots carry less delays before they actually happen, leading to Player B to get more shots in over time per slash shot against Player A's Blinksteps.
The summary so far: We have compared reload shooting, slash shot and blinkstep to one another and have come to conclusions to which allow a user of these moves to deal the most damage. We can firmly say that reload shot allows for more damage than a slash shot, therefore, if we place these two moves in a separate ranking list, reload shot would be rank 1, while slash shot would be rank 2. One reload shot is the equivalent to one slashshot and also to a single blinkstep. Slash shot, being only slightly better in dealing out damage in comparison to blinkstep, would only be half a rank over blinkstep in damage. This all means that any time a player does a slash shot, they are cutting their full possible damage output in that instance in half. Also, one and a half reload shots is the equivalent to one blinkstep. (Reload shot being 2 fast shots respectively).
So if we group these three moves in a ranking list for damage: Reload shot Rank 1, Slash shot rank 2, Blinkstep rank 2.5.
There are times when slash shot and other techniques can be rank 1 in damage, I will explain this later within this thread.
Damage Example 6: Again, using the same variables, however, this time, Player A will be chaining Dual Half Step from left to right, and Player B will be just reload shooting over and over. This one may be a bit harder for you guys to answer. Both players have two shotguns equipped that all deal the same damage and both players are at a mid range distance apart from each other and stay that way during this whole example. Assume at this range it takes 10 shots to kill each other and both players have a total of 10 shots before needing to reload both guns. Remember both players have 100% accuracy. A count down from 3 to 1 begins and on 1 both players immediately begin. Player A chains dual half step while Player B chains reload shot, who dies?
Answer:
Originally Posted by
Apex
Edit: I rethought it and now I realize that player A has to start DHS while B begins shooting immediately, so player A must die first
Player A dies first because they are adding extra delays before each shot during dual half step, which has two shots, a gear tap(the slash shot where you dash with gun instead) and a halfstep all in a single jump. The first shot would come out just after a slash shot's would and just before a blinkstep's shot would. The second shot is the equivalent to just doing a slash shot right after a previous one. 1 Slash shot = 1 Rs. 1 Dual half step = 2 reload shots. So you are still cutting your damage out in half because by the time Player A lands after doing one dual half step which consists of two shots, Player B would have shot at least 3 times. Since with reload shot you are only allowed two quick shots before you are caught up with delay and have to wait a while before doing another, you cannot get in that 4th shot on time.
The secrets so far: What. Is. GunZ the Duel all about when it comes to fights?
To win a fight, 1 on 1 for the simplest example, what is the best thing to do? Aim? No. Shoot to deal damage. The goal is to kill the opponent and to do that you need to deal damage, but the opponent can also deal damage so the goal to win isn't just to do that, but to deal enough damage to kill before they deal it on you. To deal damage with shots you must shoot and you don't shoot without aiming, so what comes first? Dealing damage, and you want to find ways to boost how much damage you deal, #1, by improving your aim, #2 .... wait theres more ways to do more damage with shots other than aiming??! Who woulda thought! Well, yes, that's what these examples are telling you. (Leaving melee damage out for now).
It is all about dealing damage and how to deal more damage over time to win! Now for the juicy stuff.
The reason D-Stylers have been having a hard trouble is because they have been using mediocre techniques like blinkstep and JSD (jump shoot dash), or yoyodash, these techniques aren't even for evasiveness, they were the main shooting moves a d-styler would use and a k-styler could always deal more damage to us.
It took a D-Styler with amazing aim just to defeat an average K-Styler because there are moments in time during fights in gunz the duel a player is in that I call "wide open". You are wide open when the opponent can shoot you and you cannot shoot back and the lower your HP is, the more you feel the effects of this. For example, Player A has a shotgun out and player B is jumping up to do a blinkstep, both players are 1 hp, player B will feel wide open because they know they are risking the chance of being shot first since their gunshot is delayed via blinkstep. You would feel helpless at this time.
Note that this does not only happen at lower HP's, players are wide open all the time. As I explained in the examples, like in one example it was reload shot against slash shot, so the times when a player jumps up to do a slash shot and gets shot against the player just spamming reload shot, that is a moment when the slash shooter is wide open. Taking damage when they could not have done so, therefore, putting themselves behind in the fight until eventually, they will have less HP than their opponent if there are more wide open moments, and they will die. This is how one player's HP goes down and another's not as much DESPITE AIMING ABILITIES. Both players could have 10/10 aim, it wouldn't matter if you use crappy moves like JSD against a slash shooter, or even DHS against YoyoRSH (DHS is the crappy move in this part).
All this never mattered when it came to kstyle against kstyle because a kstyler shares the weaknesses with another kstyler, if 2 players use slash shot against each other, it doesn't matter what the weaknesses of slash shot are if both are using it.
Times when moves can be rank 1:
Slash shot can be rank 1 when. That's a secret I won't tell for now, unless you can figure it out, please share 8D.
Okay, let's see what we can fill into this for now. Reload shot is what you compare the other moves to since its at maximum shooting speed. 1 rs = 1 slash shot or well 3/4 of an rs = 1 slash shot. 1 blinkstep = 1 rs though. aka u get 1 shot with blinkstep while u get 2 shots with reload shot in the same time period, but with slash shot you're 2nd shot doesn't necessarily come at the same time when the slash shot's shot comes out because slash shot can get really really low (jump canceling) and fast.
-----------------------------------------------don't need to read this prototype, its still right however, in the sense that the above technique in the tier list is better than the one below it for damage-----------------------
Alternate tiers: the move does not delay the player from shooting right away, but delays then to shoot again right away. Don't think about chaining because 1 blinkstep puts you two shots behind against tier 1, if you did 2 blinksteps in a row, your now 4 shots behind, so chaining 2 blinksteps is equal to tier 8 in chaining damage, but we aren't talking about chaining.
Reload shot isn't the only way to deal your maximum damage.
Update History:
Jan. 9th, 2014, 10:57 PM GTM-5:
- Removed Dual Half Step since it is just made up of two techniques, halfstep and LD Gear tap, tier list only compares the core techniques, so dual half step would still be equal to the tiers of gear tap and half step.
- Changed slash shot and half step to tier three and renamed them reload slash shot, reload half step.
- Removed alternate tier 3 which had slingshot and placed slingshot in tier 3. This was done because at the end of the day, the damage of slingshot is cut, even if the delay is after the shot and not before, the delay is still there. Slingshot would be tier 1 in certain times. Since theres no delay before the shot, you can shoot right away when you want, and if this shot kills your opponent, the cannot shoot you back while you are wide open during the added delay, so it would not matter. Basically any time the shot lands and your opponent cannot follow up = not falling behind in damage because the opponent is not damaging you. You are just falling behind in the maximum damage you COULD have done (if they did not die from the single shot).
- Slingshot knocked down to tier 4, blink and hhs to T5.
Prototype Damage Ranking/Tier List
Tier 1: Reload Shot, YoyoRS, RSYoyo, SlingRS, YoyoRSH,
Tier 1.5: LDYoyoRS, LDYoyoRSH,
Tier 2: Reload Slash shot,
Tier 3: Slingshot, Shimmer shot, Reload Half step
Tier 4: Reload Blink step, Reload Half Half step
Tier 5: Yoyo Half, Yoyo Dash, JSD
Tier 6: JSF
Tier 7: Yoyo Quarter
Tier 8: Yoyo Sixteenth
Combination Techniques: These are separate because the time frame to do these are not comparable to single shot single dash moves. So... Tier 1 Here would be.... Okay Forbidden step = slash shot then half step. reload slash shot at the moment is tier 2, so so far in the start of this technique FBS, it is tier 2, then half step comes along which is tier 3. So FBS can't be better than just slash shots, nor worse than just half steps, so i'd place it as tier 2.5 in the above list when it comes to damage. Remember, everything is being compared to the maximum possible damage, which is reload shot.
Tier 1: Forbidden step
Tier 2: Dual Half step
Tier 3:
-----------------------------------------------okay, now read--------------------------------------------------------
Okay figured it out, scrapping the above lists, found a better way to group these.
What I'm really looking into are the delays each move uses. There are moves that use different glitches to be performed, Yoyo and Blink use the height of jump animation freeze, sling and shimmer type moves use switch dash, which is an un-canceled dash shorter than a regular dash, switch dashes cannot be canceled. And then you have regular canceling.
The more cancels you add, the more delays you add.
I only needed to rank certain techniques, because many techniques share the same amount of cancels anyway. Lets go on slash shot first.
1 Cancel = 1 Delay.
Slash shot: ( I always mean reload slash shot) is jump with sword out, dash to (1)cancel jump - slash to (2)cancel dash - switch to gun to (3)cancel slash - shoot.
There are three cancels also known as, three delays, added to shooting your gun. Remember, the best way to damage someone is to switch to gun and shoot. Or just shoot if you have the gun out. So since slash shot has 3 delays, lets put it at rank 3 in damage. Or tier 3 in damage, what sounds better?
Rank 1:
Rank 2:
Rank 3: Slash shot
Rank 4:
Blinkstep now. : Blink step generally is Jump - (1)wait until height of jump to dash with dagger for a silent short dash - (2)Do the Dash - (3)Switch to gun during the dash - Shoot.
Blinkstep does have 3 delays as with slash shot, however they all do not consist of just canceling delays. Canceling delays are shorter than these the first delay here, a timing delay. Let's call them timing delays which equal 2 cancel delays. So 1 Timing delay = 2 Cancel Delays. Therefore, could say there are 4 delays in total here. The Dash chains onto the first delay, it happens right when u reach height of jump and then u have to switch to gun after dashing, if it were at the same time, the dash delay wouldn't really matter. On the last delay u wait until the gun comes out then you shoot. So this leaves blinkstep with a total of 4 delays, so blinkstep would be rank 4.
Rank 1:
Rank 2:
Rank 3: Slash shot
Rank 4: Blink step
Reload shot: Reload shot consists of delays but it does not matter because it allows a player to shoot the fastest, reload shot cannot be rank 2 or rank 4 because its gun out - shoot. there is no delay besides weapon switching if your gun was not already out. Gun out - shoot = tier 1. Remember we are only counting delays before shooting, but the initial delay to switch to sword to start slash shot or to switch to gun to start reload shot doesn't count because EVERYONE has these delays no matter what the move is. I guess if your a kstyler it would be good to walk around with sword out and for a d-styler its better to walk around with gun out, to cut initial delays.
Rank 1: Reload shot
Rank 2:
Rank 3: Slash shot
Rank 4: Blink step
Gear tap/step: is exactly (without a dash before it and when done at near maximum speeds) Jump with sword equipped + Slash - Switch to gun to cancel slash(1) - Dash with gun equipped to cancel jump(2) - Shoot.
Rank 1: Reload shot
Rank 2: Gear Tap
Rank 3: Slash shot
Rank 4: Blink step
(adding more, just waiting on response for an answer and to keep people caught up)
